Vinnie Chick John Live_at_Blue_Note vid

[Kurt R]

[ame="http://files.filefront.com/Tokoyo_Blue_Note/;4019616;;/fileinfo.html"]Video Game Downloads on FileFront[/ame]

Live_at_Blue_Note
Chick Corea Vinnie Colaiuta John Patitucci


I know this was on dime as a torrent and even dvd so those who dont have it get it!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 07, 2005 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Kurt R ]</font>

[Dazzler]

Yeah Kurt! You've been spoiling us recently matey boy, thanks so much. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Is this the whole gig? I only have that once track where Vinnie does 8's.

It's downloading now... if it is the whole gig, THANKS A MILLION!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Kurt R]

Its 55min 9sec so I think it's the whole gig [img]wink.gif[/img]

Its mpg so I think you "should" be able to burn it to a VCD.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 07, 2005 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Kurt R ]</font>

[JoesMechanic]

Yeah man!!! Thats the one!!!

The "Jazz" vocabulary that Chick and Vinnie are exchanging are like some dood speaking in toungues with his head spinning in circles!!! Probably one of my favorite Vinnie shows. He was just sooo on that night.

[Flarobstix]

I'm sorry man, but that ignorant comment is just begging for it.
If you want to suck on Vinnie's genitals that's fine, but I can't even begin to agree with you. Learn jazz before you make a statement like that. Actually that's an oxymoron, because anyone who knew jazz wouldn't say what's in your post. That is brilliant musicianship, but jazz vocab? You're not even close. If you want Jazz vocab in trio go listen to Tommy Flanigan, or Oscar Peterson with Ed Thigpen, or even Kieth Jarret. If you want Chick, check out Chick, NHOP, and Roy Haynes. That's jazz vocabulary.

The only "jazz vocabulary" on that video is that in J.P's bass solos and the occasional swingin' bop cliche by Chick. Chick wasn't even going there because he knew that the purpose of this trio was to play something beyond the limits of the jazz language. They were improvising beyond jazz vocab. Jazz vocab wasn't even the foundation. That's painfully obvious to the real jazz fan.

Now don't turn my words around and say that I'm stating Vinnie can't play jazz. I"m not saying that.
What I'm saying is that Jazz vocabulary is not on this CD or DVD, and you should learn what you're talking about. You're a nice guy, and i'm sure you can play a few things on the drums. But obviously jazz is an area where you need a bit more ear training. There are people in here that are serious jazz experts, so please, no more ignorant comments.
If that was jazz vocab, you need to go to music school, or play some more real jazz CDs while you're fixing those cars. I can recommend a few.

And i'm not saying this performance isn't killer. It is.
Just don't attempt to label it in that way. The words jazz vocabulary actually mean something to me, and everyone else who love and tries to preserve the music.
Chick Corea is purely capable of it in different bands. His tribute to Bud Powell, and his band with Avi and Jeff along with his early trio recordings are evidence of this.
This trio however, is not that. It's more like the akoustic band. Great playing, amazing converstion, whatever. Not jazz vocab. More like just amazing music.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 08, 2005 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>

[zmorton]

I find myself in this conversation over and over again, lol. Seriously though, I am genuinely curious about it.

Flarobstix... I've said in prior posts that I'm majoring in jazz right now and do a fair amount of gigging in "traditional" jazz settings. I love the tradition and origin of this American music and try to check out, and study, as many of the pioneers as possible. At the same time I am heavily influenced by the more modern players and try to fuse styles used by all generations of jazz drummers into my own style.

I do not ask this sarcastically but could someone please give me a specific element of drumming, exclusive to jazz, that makes it part of the "jazz vocabulary?" Something that is not represented in the mentioned Vinnie performance?
Now I mean something specific in the notes. Not drummer x's style, drum kit, cymbals, sticks, vibe, etc. is different than drummer y's.

Zak

[GoMan]

Im not sure but I thought those quotation marks JoesMech put on "jazz" vocabulary was more of a kind of joke or something....refering back to the several arguments you guys have had on jazz in the past.

I dunno what he was thinking so obviously i dont really speak for him but that was my first impression when I read the post.

[Dazzler]

Flarobstix, I know that we have had this argument concerning Vinnie's jazz playing before, but I just had to reply. You say that you're a jazz fan and I'm sure that you are, but how can you say that this Chick Live at The Blue Note isn't jazz or rooted strongly in the jazz vocabulary? What is it then, country? Rock? Breakbeat? Come on now, open your ears!! Of course it is and Chick's playing is directly from Bud Powell, Charlie Parker and the shapes and creativeness of running 8th note phrases.

I know exactly what you're trying to say and I have in the past argued that Vinnie doesn't play jazz in the 'traditional sense', whatever that is (!) but when you make bold statements like one should listen to Tommy Flanigan, or Oscar Peterson for real jazz, then and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that jazz beyond a certain period isn't jazz. To say that "Jazz vocab wasn't even the foundation. That's painfully obvious to the real jazz fan." is an extremely dangerous and misimformed statement to make Flarob.

Chick and Vinnie may not play like Wynton Kelly and Philly Jo, but the art from EVOLVES, by it's very nature, it has to. Ok, they may not be playing swing and bop phrasing, but that's because it's not 1956! This was recorded in the early 90's, nearly half a decade after the period you are reffering to. By citing those two pianists, are you saying that Chick isn't a jazz pianist? What is he then? Are Keith Jarrett and Cecil Taylor? What would you call the music they play, when they 'free up'?

This gig with Chick, Vinnie and JP is of course jazz and the vocabulary that they are playing comes directly out of the traditions of the piano jazz trio, but please put it into context before you berate another guy. Jazz does not have to contain lots of 'mop mops' in order to be jazz! Harmony and rhythm has evolved greatly since Oscar, Ahmad Jamal, Tommy Flanaga et al and what we see and hear here is the result: Complex rhythmic counerpoint, phrasing, harmony and suspensions. If Jazz didn't evolve, we would all be listening to music from the turn of the century.

This is the beauty of the art form: that it CAN change, free up and go anywhere if it wants to. It can loose the form or even ignore it, there are no rules.

I would be EXTREMELY careful before you call people ignorant and tell them to "go to music school, or play some more real jazz CDs while you're fixing those cars" because you're only making a fool of yourself as well as getting nasty and personal. If this and The Akoustic Band is "amazing conversation and not jazz" to quote you, then I'm intregued to know what you would call it. If what you are saying (and I know what you're saying!) is true, then we would all be listening and playing bop language and phrasing that stops in 1959.

Let's go further, why don't you write down a list of what one is allowed to play in order for it to be construed as jazz or jaz vocab. This gig is without question a jazz trio, the music may not be in the traditional sense, but all marks are there, you just have to open YOUR ears, not be so close minded and be willing to accept the fact that it is 1991 and not 1956 any more!

Is Bitches Brew, Ornette Colemans' 'The Shape Of Jazz To Come' or Coltranes' Interstellar Space jazz? If not, then why not? Or does jazz have to sound like Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins or Lester Young? Don't forget that Charlie Parker was berated by a lot of more 'traditional' musicians that couldn't hear what he was doing. That was back in the early 50's and in retospect, we would now simply call in Bebop!

I've said enough, you get the point!! [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 08, 2005 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

[JoesMechanic]

Flarob....

I rest with my sources on this one. And don't think you haven't been the topic of conversations with Vinnie, Weckl, and myself.

You'd have to ask Drumaddix what Vinnie said about you and your "Jazz Nazi" buddies take on playing "Jazz" in the professional sense. I guess all I can say is when you start to play the gigs he does, then you can talk.

From the lips of these two individuals, I can assure you, that they really don't care what you think as I really don't either. You've made yourself a punching bag on the matter here by many including Erskine himself.

You can decide to get all politically correct about swing, language, Jazz, Trad Jazz, whatever. But I really don't think for the most part the guys in here really care "who knows the secret language of Jazz". I think many are more concerned with ones musicality and their interpretations/applications of such. We're all a pretty nice bunch here at HOD. And I knew if I said ANYTHING nice about Vinnie Jazz playing, you'd be all over it.

But as you said in your own words.........

"Chick wasn't even going there because he knew that the purpose of this trio was to play something beyond the limits of the jazz language. They were improvising beyond jazz vocab."

So if these guys could play "beyond the limits of the Jazz language"..... don't you think that they could also play within those same limits??

I think so. But it's soooo painfully obvious they choose not to.

My point was solely this. I think if you were to transcribe what Vince laid down that evening, took it home, learned to play it and feel comfortable doing so, that there isn't a "Jazz" gig traditional or not that you couldn't handle. Pretty simple huh??

Oh... and by the way Flarob.....

It's painfully obvious why you won't post a picture of yourself or expose who you are, for fear of being pointed out as a jerk.

PS.... Hey Zak!! Long time no talk. Good to see you here. We'll need to get together again soon!!

[S.P]

Yeah Flarob..it does seem like whenever something nice is said about vince your all over it...like the michael brecker thread too...

Dazz you got it man!!! If that playing wasn't mainly jazz...then what was it? Ok it wasn't traditional Jazz so what...today there seems to be so many sub-categories in jazz (post bop..contemp...trad...beebop..big band blah blah) and probably every new time someone pushed the boundaries there would have to be a new sub-cat...

Honestly if you don't like what is said here...then please leave (i thought message boards were meant to be for like-minded people to get together and talk about and discuss their similarities) instead of letting out personal insults such as "if you want lick vinnie's genitals"...John is appreciative of Vinnie's work and thats fine..you don't have to bash that...and he did put jazz as "jazz" (it seems like these days if you don't do that you get the jazz police on you)

Anyway...then you go on Hass' board and moan about HOD and how much it sucks and it makes us look bad...when HOD is an awesome place!

Without HOD or Vinnie i don't know where i would be today....most probably not drumming though.